What if Mueller finds the Russians and Trump worked together to get him elected?…Open Thread for Feb. 12, 2018…

FiveThirtyEight asks the unthinkable….

What does America have in place to deal witha President that got help from a foreign power to assume office?

The lack of an established process for reviewing elections points to a larger issue: The structures established by the Constitution assumed a world in which the presidency and the Electoral College were not fully absorbed into a contentious national party system. That vision has long since been replaced by one in which presidential elections are national contests over policy agendas and ideas. The text of our Constitution has never been changed to reflect this reality. Instead, the Electoral College remains the final word on who gets to be president. When it comes to the possibility that the winning side colluded with a foreign power to influence the election outcome, the Constitution doesn’t offer much in the way of a plan….

….experts disagree about whether courts can order presidential elections to be held again. That’s not great news for angry people hoping for a do-over. And even if it is constitutionally permissible, there’s much broader agreement that the standard for invalidating an election result and holding another vote is quite high. University of Memphis law professor Steven Mulroy told me that courts will usually entertain this option only if they determine a violation of rules that would change the election outcome. In the case of the 2016 election, this would likely require proving tampering in several states where the vote was close — enough to change the result in the Electoral College. In that case, a few states would vote again, not the entire country,…



The solution has been in the few instances?

It’s up to the President himself to to ‘do the right thing’….

THAT certainly is NOT comforting….


Mueller and Co. just answered the question that headlines this post….

100 thoughts on “What if Mueller finds the Russians and Trump worked together to get him elected?…Open Thread for Feb. 12, 2018…”

  1. Australia was able to substantially reduce gun violence by making it more difficult to own a gun. Questions to CG, Rather than offer your thought and prayers, why not do Something as other countries have done to correct the problem that the people you voted for created? There are relatively few places in the world with more gun violence than here.

          1. I don’t talk politics at work – and if they did join pdog, I would be too guarded in what I say online. That wouldn’t meet my needs. And It just wouldn’t be the same if I was always sweet. I would be accused of being the imposter that lurked at p1.

              1. Sen. Kamala Harris (D-CA) plans to endorse Gavin Newsom (D) in the California governor’s race, the Los Angeles Times reports.

                “The move is not surprising – the two Democratic politicians share the same political advisers, began their careers in San Francisco city politics and have known one another for more than two decades.”

  2. I had a rather surprising event happen today. I went out after work for dinner and drinks with co-workers and during the conversation I mentioned that I had a rather boring life. Without exception everyone at the table said that they didn’t believe me, and they would be very surprised if that were true. What’s with that?

  3. In my ongoing spirit of bipartisanship I will support any Republican nominee in my jurisdictions who unequivocally denounces the NRA.

  4. The leader of a White Nationalist group known as the Republic of Florida has confirmed that the murderer of the Florida school kids is a member of his group.

    1. The story is the shooter was known to be armed and that he had been reported to the FBI…..
      He brought the gun legally with s background check

      1. Considering the issues the family knew he had, including the mother, who apparently died just a few months ago, leaving him orphaned, it is inexcusable that whomever he was staying with allowed him to keep a weapon. As tough as it sounds, someone like him should have been institutionalized a while back.

        This circumstance might be somewhat different because his mother died before he went to this extreme, but generally speaking, parents need to be a hell of a lot more active in keeping tabs of what their kids are doing and how they might be acting on social media. Too many parents are in denial that their child could ever be “bad.”

    2. A claim like that may have been made (somewhat interesting that the shooter is of an Hispanic background, perhaps he might have been adopted into the Cruz family), but it’s not exactly proven at this point.

      And I am amazed that there would be a group like “Republic of Florida.” Is the state identity that big of a deal? Especially way down in the southern portion? Nobody really thinks of a Florida nativist movement.

      Of course right wing blogs are convinced that the shooter was a registered Democrat and are bringing out voter ID records, etc, which might very well belong to a different person with the same name in Broward County.

      1. Apparently, a lot of the students knew about it and that’s where the report originated.

        The Anti Defamation League then contacted the leader of the group who confirmed his membership while denying that the group had authorized his acts.

        1. I’d just wait for law enforcement to make that connection. All sorts of sick people are looking for 15 minutes of fame at times like this.

          (First time I believe ever seeing Ron G. on television after all these years. I wish it was under different circumstances)

          The fact that this happened on Valentines Day at the school he was kicked out of probably has some connection as well.

          1. Lots of circumstantial evidence and claims being written about that he was a Trump fan, etc, and wore MAGA hats.

            If true, his actions certainly do not anyone else who might be a Trump fan or wear those dumb hats, just like law-abiding Bernie Sanders supporters were in no way responsible for the politically motivated Congressional baseball practice shooting, etc.

            Law enforcement and prosecutors will certainly provide information about motive, etc, and anybody who was in any way associated with his attack or helping him needs to be prosecuted as well.

            The urge to play politics with all of this is completely sordid, including the InfoWars and other right-wing blogs that rushed out to claim he was a registered Democrat, as if that should matter one bit if true.

            Did white supremacists not even raise an eye-brow at someone named “Nikolas Cruz?”

              1. People often obtain beer and guns illegally. I think it’s hard to make this about an age connection. That’s the same rationale that will be used to lower the drinking age (which I am sure a lot of people want) or taking the right to vote away from those under 21.

                There seems to maybe be a problem with background checks if too many people are able to get past them. We need to do everything possible to make those more accurate, but that still will do nothing concrete to fix the overall issue, and of course neither will “banning” all guns.

              2. First a young Republican murdered an innocent woman in Charlottesville because of her political beliefs, and now a Republican Trumpkin has gunned down 17 innocent people in Florida. If only the Republican Congress has passed universal background checks none of this had to happen.

              3. And if outrage is the outlet to use as it relates to tragedies, I want to know what the rationale is for a four- time convicted felon, a career criminal at 44 years old, to have been allowed out on the streets, to kill a cop or anyone else.

                Who are the judges that let this happen? (there’s a reason why I always vote no on retention for every judge in Cook County)

                It seems like the solution to keeping violent felons behind bars might be an easier one than figuring out just exactly what is wrong with humanity to cause evil mass shooters to have no regard at all for human life.

              4. I have no “damage to control.” I’ve never run afoul of the law, unlike someone else who posts here but blaming a mass murder on Republicans or Democrats or immigrants or Muslims or anything of the sort is sick and anti-American.

              5. You’re the one that brought up this whole issue of blaming people not me.

                You are very much afraid that continuing incidents like this will tip the scales in the continuing debate over banning certain (not all) guns that have no purpose but use in mass killings to the “control” side.

                You are very transparent when you get all sanctimonious .

              6. Further ,you yourself conceded that there was a White Nationalist element in the Trump movement.Even f you didn’t,it is painfully obvious.

                If it turns out this guy was apart of that?For sure it is going to generate much discussion,your ingratiating “let’s not talk about that” routine notwithstanding.

              7. No jack, I don’t think this is going to tip the scales on “gun control” one bit, (not that I have a stake in that debate anyway) and if anything will lead people to believe that more law-abiding citizens with guns might be needed to deal with these seeminly inevitable tragedies.

                I just think it’s terrible though when people have to rush to their online “hot takes” to play politics with this, “i.e, “the kid was a Republican!” or “the kid was a DACA recipient!”, etc. etc. It’s complete b.s. on both sides.

              8. The “white nationalist” movement behind Trump represents a very small slice of the people who are “behind Trump.” As you know, I am not one of them in any way, shape, or form, but I think it is inappropriate to lump all Trump supporters together in such a way.

                We do not know the motive for why this evil person did what he did. The authorities will probably tell us more. Everyone should chill out until then and yes, there really is nothing else we can do right now, but pray for the families, and think there but the Grace of G-d go we.

              9. When law enforcement tells us he did this to please Donald Trump, we can discuss that theory then, and not simply when someone as gutterworthy as Keith claims so on a blog.

                Even if pro-Trump politics was the motive, Trump is not responsible for the shooting. He is not calling on people to do this. We can blame him for the myriad of things he is doing and not give credence to his defenders by making ridiculous over the top connections.

                What we should look at is how Trump represents the epitome of self-aggrandizement and the lack of any moral responsibility towards the treatment of others who “get in his way” and how such leadership at the top of America can permeate its way down to society in a harmful way.

              10. Oh lots of Trump supporters are White Nationalists in belief ,if not as formal membership in one of these hate groups.

                Yes, when you have a President who calls these types “good people,” there is a major problem.

                And if this guy is a member of one of these groups?Sure it’s going to be a matter of great discussion.

                In my view, as I’ve expressed numerous times, you are way too sanguine about the presence of pure hate in the Trump movement.

                These posts of your today simply confirm that opinion.

              11. Interesting how our friend gets personal when he types himself into a corner.

                But consider this, if Democrats are to blame for an immigrant (legal or otherwise) committing a crime, then Republicans can shoulder the blame for all crimes committed by a gun that didn’t go through a background check.

                Right?! After all, our Republican President just recently blamed a drunk driving death on an immigrant.

                Yesterday’s slaughter is on the Republican Party.

              12. There is a difference between “prejudiced” and white nationalist or black nationalist or whatever extremes people may go to.

                Most people who voted for Trump are not racist. They just decided they had to look the other way at the racist things he did say and stand for, *in part*, because the term racist had gotten thrown around too loosely in the past by individuals like Keith that people just tuned it out.

              13. People can choose to lower themselves to Trump’s level as a “you too” defense mechanism, but I will maintain it’s sick on all sides.

              14. ….’But Judge William Pryor, who wrote the panel’s decision, said the intent of the social media posts was clear, and the authors of some of those posts were not merely private citizens, but “secession leaders” who would later serve in official capacities for the school board, two serving on the board itself and two serving on an advisory board.’….

                Nuff said….

              15. So because some unidentified people threw the term “racist” around,then these non racists decided that such was reason to vote for a racist?

                I see I see.

                You Republicans are really something.

              16. The judges used the people’s OWN words against them….

                I expect the same thing will happen with Mueller against Trump….

                Good ole’ social media!

              17. Yes Jack, I think you understand CG nonpartisan argument.

                The nonracists voted for the person who is a racist because Keith and others (you and me) have sometimes used the term racist when it really doesn’t apply. If we had instead been silent on the actions such as the GOP’s effort to make it more difficult to vote in counties with a black majority population, then the non-racists might not have voted for Trump.

        2. I’ve heard Republicans say about voting for Trump that “you libruls are just going to call me racist anyway so I might as well”.

          So instead if arguing they are not they just embrace it.

          But we shouldn’t call them racists.

          Got it.

          1. When Mitt Romney was called a racist and a misogynist throughout the 2012 campaign, those words lose their meaning and people are desensitized by it.

            In 2012, Keith said here several times that every single Romney voter was akin to a Nazi sympathizer while at the same time, even putting aside his demonstrable public record in regards to past racism while engaged in the political arena, uses the n word on this blog and occasionally refers to Obama as “boy”, so I think I know why he likes to deflect when it comes to white racism.

            1. My first thought is there are other words that better describe Romney than racist. “Elitist” comes first to mind.

              But I do recall one comment – something like “No one ever asked to see my birth certificate”. That was clearly pandering to those who view Obama as less than American. I think it was later described as a joke – but joke requires humor, and there was absolutely nothing funny about the comment. Romney’s supporters laughed, and maybe CG did too when he heard it. But I think it is worthwhile to ask why would someone find that comment funny? And why would Romney make it?

              1. He was campaigning in Michigan in the and trying to make the point that he was a native Michigander? He referenced the hospital where he was born and the hospital where his wife was born, etc.

                Sometimes people, even smart people, make ill advised statements or jokes off the cuff. Obama has done so as well. Lord knows Hillary has done it a ton (referencing the Bobby Kennedy assassination, etc). Romney has never suggested that Obama was not born in the U.S. and when reporters asked him about the failed joke, he made that clear.

                Somehow though, I don’t think Keith was joking when he made his blog comments about Republicans being Nazis and me being a Nazi sympathizer for supporting Romney or donating any amount of money to his campaign. Now, I don’t believe he actually believed that or many of the things he typed, but he intentionally would say so, and others here just chose to disregard him and shrug it off, just like Trump voters disregard Trump.

          2. What does Keith’s actions thirty years ago have to do with the fact that a majority of Republicans believe ,with no evidence whatsoever, that Obama was born in Africa.

            And if you believe pure racism isn’t the answer then explain to us what is,

            1. For one, the whole “glass houses” thing, but I was primarily referencing his racist and otherwise unseemly behavior in the time that we all have seen him communicate online.

              But I question the existence of a poll that states a finding exactly as how you present it. I do know we have far too many “low info voters” in America, and that was a big problem in how we elected our last two Presidents.

              I will also state that “pure racism” may not be at the heart of all “Birthers” although I realize that I might have not realized how these discussions might have affected African-Americans early on.

              In my time as a Republican activist type, in the early Obama years, I definitely ran across some “birthers” (very weird people to say the least.. and some also would insist that Marco Rubio, despite being born in Florida, was ineligible to be President) and these people were the very same people who loved Alan Keyes and who in fact supported Alan Keyes for President as a third party candidate. Alan Keyes is kind of the hero of a lot of “birthers” and he seems to be proud of his role in that and as we know, Alan Keyes is the descendent of African slaves who were brought to America.

              So, considering that, I found it harder to surmise that these otherwise wacko people somehow hated black people or the idea of a black President. I thought they just hated Obama and wanted to refuse the legitimacy of his being elected.

              1. Nice obfuscation.

                Your continuing. Obsession with Keith’s actions thirty years ago has become almost comic.

                Anytime he posts about anything you throw that up.

                It’s nothing more than a diversion from discussing the issues he raised.

                So all you can do is “question” the poll and imply that these Republicans who believe this lie about Obama have no racist tendencies because they were “for” Alan Keyes?

                That’s your explanation?

                Ok .Ill give you mine…

                They are a bunch of two bit bigots so consumed with visceral hatred for the first Black President that they have invented in their hate filled minds a pure fantasy which somehow legitimizes their myth that Obama was not “eligible” to serve as President.

                So it gave them another reason to support the birthed in chief who now to the everlasting disgrace of this country serves as President.

                Yeah,lots of “good people” there.

              2. No, not everytime. (believe me, I have been quite restrained in talking about the stuff from the 80s), and have talked here primarily about what he has done in communication with me personally…..and handle stealing on P1 to the claims of me being a Nazi sympathizer in 2012, (the same thing you said I should just “get a thicker skin” about)

                And there is no universe where you can lump me in with the Birthers, and I know you realize that, so not sure what the point of that attempted goading is.

              3. Breaking on this busy news day….


                CookPoliticalReport Retweeted

                Jennifer Duffy
                #NDsen: @RepKevinCramer’s announcement this afternoon that he will challenge @SenatorHeitkamp in November after all puts the race into the Toss Up column.

              4. And I had a post that was “edited” now, in which words I used were omitted. How cool. The editor should at least make note of that, that he is the one making the excision.

                And what are the standards for that going to be?

              5. I didn’t use profanity or anything. I am not sure what the standards are, so I assume If I feel that anyone else has “crossed a line” you will edit their posts as well. I can think of many equivalent examples.

                The main point I was trying to make is still there though. I just think it’s a disservice to anyone here to have their posts edited without that being noted by the person who decided to do it.

              6. I didn’t lump you in with the birthers .

                I believe your explanation as to their beliefs was lame and the questioning of the poll is a trite trick used by everyone who doesn’t agree with a particular one.

                I don’t know what you are referring to by your claim that I was “goading” you.

              7. We should just be accurate about what these “polls” actually say, specifically as it relates to the claim. I do not believe there is a poll that specifically says a majority of Republicans believe he was born in Africa.

                You would similarly want me to be completely accurate about the polls which showed just how many Democrats believed that George W. Bush directed the 9/11 attacks. (Do all those Democrats still believe that? Probably not, now that Dubya is out of office is no longer the biggest threat to their psyche.)

              8. Assuming everything you say about Keith is true,

                It still doesn’t explain why every conversation on here where he comments you feel the need to rehash over and over the same points you have made innumerable times.

                In my view that fits the definition of “obsession” and has nothing to do with the topic being discussed.

              9. Actually I rarely talk about him. Feel free to keep a running tally.

                But yeah, I plead guilty to holding a grudge, when I am equated to a Nazi, etc., and wanting to stand up to a bully, especially since nobody else here (with the slight exception of DSD once or twice) did anything at all to call him out on his rhetoric but merely just “applauds” him when you like what he says on other matters.

              10. Who Needs a running tally?

                It’s obvious for everyone here to read.

                I’ve never called you a Nazi,nor do I believe you are one.

                I really though don’t understand why,if you feel that strongly about Keith’s past or what you claim he did to you,you would want to spend your afternoons engaging in conversations with him and people you feel Are insufficiently condemnatory Of these events from long ago.

                Indeed, most people would studiously avoid such verbal contact with their alleged harasser.

                Just doesn’t make much sense to me .

              11. I’d prefer if I never read a post from him again, but there’s nothing I can do about that. I clearly have plenty of other things to talk about. In spite of everything, if he were to behave in his rhetoric, I would respond in kind. He makes plenty of references to me himself, and then I typically respond to those.

                But yes, I like the fact that he for years, as a government official, bragged that he had “personal information” about me, some of which was not accurate, while believing that nobody would ever find out his full name or actually was (and how that could then be fairly easily linked to the past he did not talk about). So, yes, I like the fact that he knows that I know who he is. Luckily for him, it was not until after he retired from his government position, but still, it was not something he was counting on.

              12. Oh I see.

                So this is some type of “payback.”

                In other words you are now here to harass him and we are the audience to it.

                Weird is the word.

                Real weird.

              13. You can look at it that way if you want. Nobody said you have to keep talking about it yourself, jack. You seem to want to talk about it though.

                I will maintain, all things considered, I have been more restrained and cautious about trying to “expose” him than he deserves.

              14. I find your frequent rants against james kinda weird (especially since you ought to have long known he is never going to change) but I guess we all have our triggers.

                As the stereotype goes, the Irish and the Jews hold on to their grudges..

              15. No, I don’t think you are Irish. That wasn’t what I was suggesting.

                I was just repeating the stereotype about Jews (which I can make since it applies) but didn’t want to leave another group out, since it is said more frequently about them.

              16. As for my rants against James.

                At least I am addressing matters he has raised on this site and not matters from years ago that you cite continuously as counters to matters wholly unrelated to those matters from the past

                But that isn’t what I find weird anyway.

                It’s that you choose to spend your afternooons on a small site of about five of six posters ,one of whom you allege was,in effect , “stalking” you years ago and peoooe you believe to be his sympathizers.


              17. You keep bringing it up today. Usually, I talk about other things, but since I am not doing anything illegal or immoral, I don’t see the harm.

                Clearly though, my holding a grudge against him for what I am convinced are more than legitimate reasons disturbs you more than the Nazi sympathizer claims he makes against me and literally millions of others and continues to hold to.

                Is there another matter you think is more pertinent to discuss? I think there probably are a lot.

              18. I am also wasting my Friday afternoon before a long holiday weekend on another blog where I am stating some inconvenient truths to Trump sycophants about the whole Russia investigation.

              19. and be grateful james.

                The two days you had absolutely zero comments from anyone other than yourself, you were probably freaking out.

              20. “we have far too many “low info voters” in America, and that was a big problem in how we elected our last two Presidents.”

                Obama did exceedingly well among people with an advanced degree. He would have easily lost against Romney if he didn’t win that vote.

              21. I wasn’t talking about people with advanced degrees. That includes lawyers who always tend to be fairly Democrat.

                But we have low info voters who voted for both Obama and Trump (many the same people who voted for both) based on the “celebrity factor” or getting their news from Facebook or Comedy Central, etc.

              22. Lawyers make up a small percentage of people with advanced degrees, but I am not sure why you think lawyers would have a natural tendency to be liberal. Corporations hire lawyers too to defend them, and the lawyers who are employed by corporations from my experience also appear to be disproportionately liberal.

                But economists, sociologists, historians, scientists, etc. They all tend to be liberal. It seems to me that the most knowledgeable voters are disproportionately liberal.

                Wasn’t Reagan more of a celebrity than Obama? I would be willing to bet Reagan did very well with low information voters.

              23. Yes, I should have mentioned professors toO.

                I am starting to multitask too much, so I may end it here..

                Reagan at one point was a bigger celebrity than Obama, but his acting career was years earlier and he had been Governor of California for eight years and amassed a significant record, whether one liked it or not.

                Obama ran and won on the appeal of “hope” not based on anything he had done in his short time as a Senator, etc, but because he had celebrity appeal. This is why I think Oprah would be the strongest potential Democrat candidate. She combines the appeal of both Obama and Trump.

            2. A few thoughts…

              I’m sure Reagan did likely do well among all Demographic groups, but I would bet less so among those with advanced degrees.

              You were only a kid when he was first elected, but
              I can tell you that his experience as governor was not an issue in the campaign.

              Lastly, I think you misread the Democratic electorate when you compare Oprah to Obama. Note that Keith, Scott and myself were all strong Obama supporters, but I don’t think any of us would likely vote for Oprah in the primary. It is kind of like saying that those people who supported Lyndsey Graham for president would also support Larry Craig.

    3. Why do over 50% of all self-identified Republicans still believe Barack Obama was born in Africa?

      What could it be that makes them think that way? What’s the word I am looking for?

      1. I’m interested in how Daniel, Manila and RepubliCAN feel about the shootings, Mueller, Stormy and things in general….

        Hope Brandon, SE and TerryGreen are doing good…..

      2. They are student’s of the Donald Trump Brainwashing course….

        We,the taxpayers are paying their tuition …..

        Trump gets an endowment from Putin & Co….

  5. So hard to even watch the coverage from Florida. What a horrific story. (Definitely seeing Ron G. on tv at the press conferences alongside his boss, Sheriff Israel.)

  6. Apparently porn star Stormy Daniels is claiming that Trump lawyer Michael Cohen has breached their agreement by talking about the payoff and she may feel free to talk about her affair with Trump.

    I’m still wondering who will play Trump in the sure to come porno with Stormy.

    It will,of course, gross millions.

  7. Best wishes to CG and other Illinois Republicans on the 209th birthday of their most notable forebear, the Great Emancipator (born in Kentucky, 12 February 1809; died in Washington, D.C., 15 April 1865).

        1. via twitter….

          Daily Kos Elections
          BIG hold for MN Dems, who win state Senate seat 51-47. Trump won here 46-45. GOP margin in chamber now back to just 1 seat

              1. Breaking

                Via twitter

                Jim Sciutto

                Breaking: At least 16 fatalities in the Florida school shooting, law enforcement sources tell @evanperez

              2. Those who still believe that the Almighty is also omniscient and just will no doubt be reassured by the “prayers and condolences” offered by the President, and the “thoughts and prayers” offered by the First Lady.

                With something like one fatal school shooting every week, there must now be some critical mass of Thoughts & Prayers offered by mighty politicians who feel powerless to attempt anything more.

              3. Or — as bitter Britons no doubt unfairly said of the United States offering “all aid short of war” during the Battle of Britain and the Battle of the Atlantic —

                those politicians now offering their thoughts & prayers but little else are providing All Aid Short of Help.

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